Seperating ELO from Duels

A suggestion to solve the farming problem has been proposed. Details below ... Serious Duelers only please. I will be monitoring responses to ensure no one is 'farming' votes ♥


Details:

Following the discussions around the farming problem, several players suggested a tournament style of play.
Tournaments eliminate the problem of choosing your opponent, and this essentially eliminates the farming problem. It also prevents the 'arbitrary' nature of what determines an incident of 'farming' so top players don't need interventions (punishments). This is preferred by both players and mods.

Players could continue to 'duel' to prove themselves against a particular player, but without affecting 'elo' or rank.

To have fairer results, ELO would be the result of a tournament in which players couldn't choose their opponents, in order to establish the better player in Duels.

The AtWar Dueling community is being asked to see if there is interest in establishing a more coherent system of getting ELO (similar to chess) in which players don't choose opponents in the ELO establishing system.

Note:

Several players have suggested that elo IS the problem. If it weren't for the elo system, players wouldn't even bother farming. So i just wanted to hear from the community. ♥

First of all players r6 and below should not give any seasonal elo. They can duel but they just can't count for the ladder.

2nd I believe the best system is anonymous duels. It's been stated many times. I doubt changing to W/L will change much, heck it'll even favor farming even more. It's not a rating issue per se, as all ratings can be farmed, but a misuse of the system because there's no law that governs who you can duel and when. Therefore the duel system is more of a battle of endurance on who can play the most over a reason rather than who's the best player. That's fine too, tournaments are here to find the best AW player, if the way the season is keeps duel activity high there's no need to break it. We have to accept it's a FFA system.

That being said, yes, the duel season has been a joke for years now. How many memorable seasons did we have lately? None. With the resources we have and player base just a system change won't fix any problems, in fact it'll just create more.

Please detail what problems do you think about when players should play a targeted (random established) another player in order to establish ELO.
Free duels.
What problems did you forsee?

Napsáno Leo, 17.08.2021 at 18:44

First of all players r6 and below should not give any seasonal elo. They can duel but they just can't count for the ladder.

2nd I believe the best system is anonymous duels. It's been stated many times. I doubt changing to W/L will change much, heck it'll even favor farming even more. It's not a rating issue per se, as all ratings can be farmed, but a misuse of the system because there's no law that governs who you can duel and when. Therefore the duel system is more of a battle of endurance on who can play the most over a reason rather than who's the best player. That's fine too, tournaments are here to find the best AW player, if the way the season is keeps duel activity high there's no need to break it. We have to accept it's a FFA system.

That being said, yes, the duel season has been a joke for years now. How many memorable seasons did we have lately? None. With the resources we have and player base just a system change won't fix any problems, in fact it'll just create more.

People don't care about elo. They care about trophies. We could implement a Final 4 tournament for the end of the season. Maps could be rotated every season in order to add more diversity. This would allow players who dodge other high elo players a chance to fight for the trophy.

Let's not forget that players are farming seasonal elo. Not regular elo. It resets every season so we shouldn't take away elo from duels. This would be counterproductive. Our job is to increase activity not add more restrictions.

Simple Solution I gave prior was just put a rank limit. For example if (r10) duels (r7) or below his seasonal elo just does not adds up on the r10, second thing I believe people are becoming robots by playing only eu+ settings there are many few who plays duels on any other map why not introduce a new map every season so every one get's excitement ( Scenario, Competitive players ) and participate so we don't have any farming and low player base complains any more.

I know some of the robots will complain coz they are so obsessed with their same expansions and play style. I believe things needs to be move on for good of this game.

Napsáno Ivan., 18.08.2021 at 01:01

why not introduce a new map every season so every one get's excitement

+1

On the same behaviour a good player could be punished as ''farming'' (decreasing ELO) and a player not as good as the other could get a better ELO (keeping his ELO) just because he lost a game and its not ''punished for farming'' . Good players shouldnt be punished because are winning. Clear rules should give the players same chances to show their value.
On the other hand, keeping ELO related to duels and adding more restrictions will not encourage playing (in my opinion).
Changing maps could be very interesting.

I don't know who is coming up with these ideas you guys are circulating, but all your solutions are moving towards decreased activity.

By removing elo from duels you're making them 1v1s and thus removing incentive to do it. Go check chat logs, I talked this morning with luciferstar, he asked me to 1v1 this morning multiple times, I refused. I am not interested in training him in 1v1s I want that elo from him.

Duel season and clan war seasons are great BECAUSE they offer you to play multiple times and when you fuck up, when you get shit rolls, when you rangefail, when you lose turn you can recover in the next games.

Regarding rank limit have you ever been here at nonpeak hours ? When there's two games and 4 players in the lobby ? If you limit whom players can play then you're already reducing that number and decreasing activity.

Napsáno Black Swans, 18.08.2021 at 06:53

I don't know who is coming up with these ideas you guys are circulating, but all your solutions are moving towards decreased activity.
...

just floating ideas... as i mentioned, i agree with you... but there are two issues at play (the systemic problems with elo/farming, and the player activity level) and if i understand your view correctly, they are always going to be at odds... the player activity is the problem i can't control.

Any change proposed so far can be criticized as 'putting limits which will decrease activity' which is why i am looking for suggestions.

i do think though there is no harm in trying something for a season to improve the secondary problem which is the farming. If like you say no one participates or is active, fine, we can always go back. But i think it's just as likely that if the system is more competitive and fair, players who gave up on duels will return. The only way we'll know is to try, and i don't see any harm in trying some of the suggestions put forth for a season.

How about you just forbid to duel more as 3 times in a row a guy who has 200 elo less than you ?

Napsáno brianwl, 18.08.2021 at 07:10

Napsáno Black Swans, 18.08.2021 at 06:53

I don't know who is coming up with these ideas you guys are circulating, but all your solutions are moving towards decreased activity.
...

just floating ideas... as i mentioned, i agree with you... but there are two issues at play and if i understand your view correctly, they are always going to be at odds... the player activity is the problem i can't control.

Any change proposed so far can be criticized as 'putting limits which will decrease activity' which is why i am looking for suggestions.

i do think though there is no harm in trying something for a season to improve the main problem which is the farming. If like you say no one participates or is active, fine, we can always go back. But i think it's just as likely that if the system is more competitive and fair, players who gave up on duels will return. The only way we'll know is to try, and i don't see any harm in trying for a season.

Farming is main issue for what, for whom ? Once you punish farming few times, on your own, no one is going to do it again. But I guess the idea is to remove burden from already overworked moderators by changing the system.

I think we have differing views here based on our life experiences, I come from the medical field and our first rule is:"Do no harm", obviously that's not a worry here.

Be that as it may, the final decision lies with staff, thus I don't see point in contributing to this topic anymore.

Napsáno Black Swans, 18.08.2021 at 07:22

...


Farming is main issue for what, for whom ?...

.. our first rule is:"Do no harm", obviously that's not a worry here.
...

of course 'do no harm' is an underlying principle ... that's why we're having these discussions... also it's not the main issue, though in my initial posted response i did say main, since it was the main reason i got involved... no one came to me with any other issues... i edited it about 30 seconds after i posted... you were typing your response and i had already changed it from 'main' to 'secondary'

glad you are a fellow critical thinker and you're paying attention =D

Napsáno PleaseMe, 17.08.2021 at 22:50

People don't care about elo. They care about trophies.

True, idc about elo, i care about trophies.. So make tournament every month, give us fun competative play.

Napsáno brianwl, 17.08.2021 at 18:17

A suggestion to solve the farming problem has been proposed. Details below ... Serious Duelers only please. I will be monitoring responses to ensure no one is 'farming' votes ♥


Details:

Following the discussions around the farming problem, several players suggested a tournament style of play.
Tournaments eliminate the problem of choosing your opponent, and this essentially eliminates the farming problem. It also prevents the 'arbitrary' nature of what determines an incident of 'farming' so top players don't need interventions (punishments). This is preferred by both players and mods.

Players could continue to 'duel' to prove themselves against a particular player, but without affecting 'elo' or rank.

To have fairer results, ELO would be the result of a tournament in which players couldn't choose their opponents, in order to establish the better player in Duels.

The AtWar Dueling community is being asked to see if there is interest in establishing a more coherent system of getting ELO (similar to chess) in which players don't choose opponents in the ELO establishing system.

Note:

Several players have suggested that elo IS the problem. If it weren't for the elo system, players wouldn't even bother farming. So i just wanted to hear from the community. ♥

3 months for season both duel and cw is too fucking long. Make monthly tourneys for trophy instead of 3 month shitty battle..

Literally every game uses some sort of elo system for their ranked matches, it's just not always visible or they use ranks to visualize it. How about you follow suite with these games and make duels somewhere from rank 8 upwards, no other video game lets their low ranks play ranked instantly, you usually have to rank up your social rank to be able to play. Elo should entirely be seasonal too, I don't see a need to have a separate lifetime elo, all it will do is make people camp at the higher elos because to them it looks cool or something.

Someone suggested this idea already ,but i have something to add on that
The top 12 (or top 8) in seasonal elo would have a tournament to determine the winner
The #1 player in seasonal elo would get to choose his first opponent in the tournament(out of the 12 or 8 ofc)
Then #2 and so on until there r no players left
Feel like this would give some more importance to elo, increase compettiveness ,and the champion wont be able to farm to win as well (also make it more fun for gamblers)

Farmers tend to master one/two meta strategies (for example Desert Storm/Blitzkrieg) and just spam duels with it. What could be done is introduce "Strategy ELO" and perhaps even "Country ELO" and "Map ELO". You would be receiving seperate elo values for every strategy and lets say then 4 out of the strategies you have best performed with would be taken to calculate your average ELO for the rankings. This would at least deal with meta abusers which tend to be the so called farmers as they would be forced to play different strategies as well in order to obtain a high ELO value. Also, I think it would be interesting to see who is performing well with what strategy and in what map.

Napsáno Chess, 25.08.2021 at 12:24

Farmers tend to master one/two meta strategies (for example Desert Storm/Blitzkrieg) and just spam duels with it. What could be done is introduce "Strategy ELO" and perhaps even "Country ELO" and "Map ELO". You would be receiving seperate elo values for every strategy and lets say then 4 out of the strategies you have best performed with would be taken to calculate your average ELO for the rankings. This would at least deal with meta abusers which tend to be the so called farmers as they would be forced to play different strategies as well in order to obtain a high ELO value. Also, I think it would be interesting to see who is performing well with what strategy and in what map.

this is probably the best idea

Napsáno Chess, 25.08.2021 at 12:24

Farmers tend to master one/two meta strategies (for example Desert Storm/Blitzkrieg) and just spam duels with it. What could be done is introduce "Strategy ELO" and perhaps even "Country ELO" and "Map ELO". You would be receiving seperate elo values for every strategy and lets say then 4 out of the strategies you have best performed with would be taken to calculate your average ELO for the rankings. This would at least deal with meta abusers which tend to be the so called farmers as they would be forced to play different strategies as well in order to obtain a high ELO value. Also, I think it would be interesting to see who is performing well with what strategy and in what map.

I wouldn't support a change like that but it would be great if those kinds of stats were readily available on peoples profiles i think

Napsáno Chess, 25.08.2021 at 12:24

Farmers tend to master one/two meta strategies (for example Desert Storm/Blitzkrieg) and just spam duels with it. What could be done is introduce "Strategy ELO" and perhaps even "Country ELO" and "Map ELO". You would be receiving seperate elo values for every strategy and lets say then 4 out of the strategies you have best performed with would be taken to calculate your average ELO for the rankings. This would at least deal with meta abusers which tend to be the so called farmers as they would be forced to play different strategies as well in order to obtain a high ELO value. Also, I think it would be interesting to see who is performing well with what strategy and in what map.

What's wrong with "abusing" the meta? There's always a counter to everything, good players will always find it and utilize it. Splitting elo like that is just a gimmick that doesn't solve the problem anyways, it's like forcing everyone in a football game to play goalkeeper at some point during the match. Anyways "farming" and grinding is part of the duel game because anyone can play anybody any time they want. Implementing rank limit for beginners might be the best solution we have forward.

Citovat:

What's wrong with "abusing" the meta?

Nothing is wrong with it but every now and then strategies occur that are way too strong and are much harder to counter with other strategies. Thus there is an advantage with said strategy allowing you to maintain a higher winrate then you would be able to with another not so strong strategy. Having different strategy elo would make this less of a problem for reasons I have mentioned before. Then you cannot simply get away with playing one strat if you want to be considered a high elo player.

Citovat:

There's always a counter to everything

Citovat:

Splitting elo like that is just a gimmick that doesn't solve the problem anyways, it's like forcing everyone in a football game to play goalkeeper at some point during the match.

No my suggestion definitely doesn't solve the adressed problem. Farming is an issue that cannot be solved but it can be mitigated. This game hardly compares to football in the way you have mentioned. Adjusting to a different strategy is very different from turning a normal player into a goalkeeper.

Citovat:

Anyways "farming" and grinding is part of the duel game because anyone can play anybody any time they want.

I was under the impression that the whole topic is about dealing with farming.

Given recent interest in revamping duels, i'm bumping this thread so players can add their votes. ♥